Transcript of an online debate: Who won?

Al: "Government is the problem" is one of the stupidest possible things a citizen can say in this country and it represents nothing less than a complete abdication of the responsibilities of citizenship. WE are the government. Each and every one of us IS the government. Government is or is not the problem to the exact extent that we are or are not shouldering the burdens of citizenship. The damaging conceit that the government is somehow divorced from us serves only to distance us from our fellow citizens and fosters an us vs them divisiveness that will end this democracy more completely than any foreign threat. Think deeply on this and recognize that if you hold this belief then YOU are the greatest problem this country faces.

Frank: Your statement is demonstrably false. Simple question: Does a government official have the right to declare a government office as a "Christian" office (or Muslim, Atheist, Jewish, etc.)? Do a group of people have that right? If the answer to those questions is different, then the two entities (government and a group of citizens) cannot be one and the same. As Lincoln pointed out, it's a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Government is NOT the people themselves.

Al:  Apparently demonstrably and false are words you don't understand. Our government is, as you noted, of the people, by the people and for the people, a direct manifestation of the people, if you prefer.

Frank: Your statement was "WE are the government". That statement is not true (not true = false). I gave a simple argument showing that the two entities could not possibly be one and the same (demonstrating the falsity of the original statement). I like to think I have an open mind. I make mistakes. Please illustrate how your statement was actually true, or provide the proper definition of "demonstrably".

Al:  The issue of who is the government seems pretty clear... We elect representatives from among us, thus we are the government. If you're having an issue understanding that, I'm just not clear on how to help any further.

Frank:  I'm trying to follow you here. Let me see: Government representatives come from a pool of people. Therefore, that pool of people are the government. Is that right?

Al:  That sounds like you do understand. We are that pool, we select and self-select. Government is our responsibility and it exists by our care.

Frank:  By that reasoning (that a pool of people are the government), then "we" are also the Washington Redskins. "We" are also the KKK (after all, both are groups of people culled from the community-at-large). You may counter that we get to choose the government, unlike those examples where somebody else is doing the choosing. But how much of the government are you really choosing? I didn't choose Nancy Pelosi. I'm guessing you had nothing to do with Tom Coburn. The public did not "select" the thousands of federal employees in the various agencies. Quite frankly, very few of us have any significant say in the makeup of government. When President Reagan said that "government is the problem", he was criticizing it in the same manner that you or I might criticize AMPAS or Halliburton. That criticism, whether you agree with the sentiment or not, hardly represents a "complete abdication of the responsibilities of citizenship." The government is comprised of citizens, but the two groups are not one and the same. The Dallas Cowboys secondary is comprised of Dallas Cowboys players, but that doesn't preclude Tony Romo (if he chose to) from criticizing them for failure and saying "the secondary is the problem."

Al: Last I checked I'm not a member of the KKK, nor am I on the payroll of the Redskins, Cowboys or any NFL franchise. I have no say in their decisions. I am a US citizen and as such I have the privilege of voting and knowing that my vote, as with all my fellow citizens (at least not those disenfranchised) helps in determining who will serve as my elected representative. I stand by my comments, at least until I get a check from the Redskins or my hood and robe arrive...